The Unconscious Conversation: What’s Holding You Back? with TaVona Denise

Roberto Candelaria 00:00: Alright y’all today we’re gonna be talking with my friend TaVona. Some of y’all may know her as TaVona Denise. And what she does is she helps coaches and online service providers redesign their business so they can have the lifestyle and the impact that they actually started the business for. And she really spends time helping people connect and understand the difference between influence and influencer. She’s a former physical therapist, a master certified life coach, and she’s a trauma informed business consultant. Now she is living in Mexico right now she’s living that whole freedom lifestyle. And she’s been able to do it by creating over half a million dollars in sales in her coaching business over the past few years, and she loves seeing her clients find that freedom as well. I met TaVona when I was in Mexico at an event of my dear friend Gabriel, who we have all met and I don’t know TaVona just had this smile, we sat down talking had a glass of champagne, and as they say, the rest is history. So join me for a beautiful conversation with my friend TaVona Denise and let me know. Send me a message on Instagram. Tell me what you liked.

Intro 01:07: Welcome to the Relationships Make Money podcast where it’s all about the people, partners and profits. Each week, we’ll explore conversations around partnerships, leadership, our thoughts and profits. And now your host Roberto Candelaria.

Roberto Candelaria 01:26: So yeah, listen, you’re literally jumping into our life. Because this is what happens is, we’re just going to continue a conversation that, you know, we’ve probably started a million times and never officially had and then we were just like, let’s just jump on camera and have it. So, we have no idea where today’s going. And that’s the beauty of all of this today. So, TaVona, welcome.

TaVona Denise 01:51: Thank you for having me. It’s fun to actually see you and talk to you when you’re not running errands for real.

Roberto Candelaria 01:56: It’s true. Yeah, it’s true. So listen, all my friends. No, this is I love to use my time. And so I think about that. It’s like if I’m going to the grocery store, or if I’m going to the bank or the dry cleaners or whatever. I love to build relationships with people, and I love to connect with people. And so I literally think about like, how do I be intentional with my time and connection? And so I will like run off to the grocery store and be like, Okay, I’m gonna call TaVona. I’m gonna message Judith, I’m gonna call Leslie. I gotta text Brooke, I gotta whatever. And I’ve learned to become intentional with my time. And so yes, like, my friends are like, are you at the grocery store again? Are you at Target? Are you buying wine? And so, when we get on Zoom, they’re like, what’s going on?

TaVona Denise 02:49: It was very strange.

Roberto Candelaria 02:52: I know. That’s like the only time you would I actually ever see each other in person. Like a couple times it’s happened. We’ve been at an event and we’ve had a glass of wine. So maybe we should have recorded this with wine. But it’s 10am here. So probably not a good idea because there’s the rest of the workday. So for the people that dealt now’s, like, tell us like physical therapists to life coach turned business strategists like the journey. What happened? Why? Tell me.

TaVona Denise 03:23: So many things throughout, when I guess the first thing I could say is my obsession, if you will, with business and entrepreneurship started before I had my physical therapy license. And it’s my mom’s fault, because she joined Mary Kay and she was like, I need a team member. And I’m wearing makeup today, but I don’t usually wear makeup. So it’s like so bad that they had to hold me down and put makeup on all day. I was like such the tomboy and still kind of am. So that was my first soiree into entrepreneurship of sorts. And then I went into I had my own physical therapy contracting company. I had an alternative fitness event company, which at that time, I was starting to get more mature in physical therapy, and my body was not loving it. And then I read a book called The Four-Hour Workweek. And I tell people, it’s Tim Ferriss, his fault that I live in Mexico, because he put the bug in my head that you could live anywhere, work anywhere, but Tom knew rich, and I think in his mind, it was 250,000, 200,000, something like that. And so then I started looking for ways to make money from anywhere and still use my skills. And when I got into the alternative fitness event, then came health coaching. And I was like, Oh, I can do that from anywhere at the time. We were using telephone. So that’s how long I’ve been doing coaching and so our coach, people read the telephone and then I said well, I’m going to do so something slightly differently building this business. I went to I Googled a mentor on business mentorship for coaching because I’m How to start a business. I just didn’t know how to start a coaching business. And we did our interview and she said you only had a two-day three days certification, you need more training, you need to go see my friend Brooke, and she has a Life Coach School and you need to go over there. So I’m like, oh, okay, no problem. And this is back in 2014. Actually, this 2013 end of the year, when I had my call with Brooke herself, she did my sales call. And then I joined graduate school, I got life coach certified and weight loss coach certified. And that’s really what I did. And then, you know, I guess we can find sport, but I ended up doing burnout coaching for women in healthcare, that then went to business coaching for them, because I’m like, I don’t want to just sit here and listen to you complain about your manager, not listen to your ideas, I want to work with people want to do something about it and create their own, create their own retreat, like really to need the ultimate freedom. And so from some twists and turns here we are.

Roberto Candelaria 06:02: Listen, there’s always twists and turns. And I was laughing at the Mary Kay, because I don’t know, I Well, I do know, as I say, it’s like, I know how many women I know that, like, Mary Kay was my first thing in entrepreneurship. And it was because of my mom, it was because of my aunt. And they needed their first team member because they were trying to get their first bonus. And I and all of them also, were just like, I didn’t even love makeup. And what’s so interesting to even hear you share that part of it, too is like how far like the world has come? And I say that because I’m just guessing. You know, knowing how long I known you knowing when you said you got into coaching. So if we well, let’s just ask, so like, when was Mary Kay? When do you say by how many years ago?

TaVona Denise 06:45: 2000-2001.

Roberto Candelaria 06:49: So like 22 years ago at the time of this recording, and it’s about time another friend was doing it? Like y’all, that’s back when they had to carry their inventory. Yeah, there wasn’t no order online, and it just shows up at your door. Y’all were getting cases of this shit. And it was showing up. Oh, by the way, we cuss TaVona. We just we don’t edit it out.

TaVona Denise 07:11: Oh, okay, good. Thanks for the information.

Roberto Candelaria 07:14: And, and I think that that’s so fascinating, like, and I bring that up, because, you know, that has served you through all these other iterations. And so like, when you talk about these other businesses, what were some of your first offers as a coach, and some of your business is? Well, the good the bad.

TaVona Denise 07:34: My first, the first offer as a coach was think, at charge $600. Or it was either six or 12 weeks of weight loss coaching. And that was the jump off from the alternative fitness event company because I was going all around Atlanta, doing these events at trampoline aerobics, aerial yoga, pole dancing, like I had a commute 500 Women in this community now, I would say since those events, but if I ever wanted to go to go back to Costa Rica or something, I couldn’t do it. So when I found the weight coaching, I was like, Okay, I’m gonna do this. And I think that first was either six or 12 weeks for $600. And that was my first offer as a coach. And I had a number of people in that because as I look back now, I had already built the community from something else I had built credibility, people knew to myself, let’s do it. They also knew about our background as a physical therapist. So it was an easy and natural soiree, if you will into we coaching, wellness coaching. And so from that a number of other coaches at the time, the school wasn’t doing business training. So a number of other coaches were like, wait a minute, how did you get paying clients so fast? And I just started teaching them what I did. And that’s how I transitioned from weight coach into business coaching that first.

Roberto Candelaria 08:50: So let’s talk about that. Like, let’s talk about this aspect of community, like what a community mean to you, you mentioned that you have community around you, you have the people. And what did that mean to you, as someone stepping into this new realm of coaching? I know that one of the conversations we’ve had before is, you know, there’s so many people that are stepping into the coaching space that are just like, well, I know nobody. I can’t ever get one client because I know nobody. And I think that they forget that they have people all around them or read. And so what does that community look like to you? And whether it’s for their niche or not niche and we’re not even going to get into nice drama today. Okay, after that’s a three-part episode.

TaVona Denise 09:34: I’m actually talking about that today in my group about the niche or not to niche that is the question. What is community look like? To me? It really just depends, but I think in that sense, I had a community actually use meetup.com, which is still in existence today. So I used meetup.com to build a community of people who were interested in the same topic like having alternatives. To running and working out. So that’s what the community was built around in the Atlanta area, the greater Atlanta area. So that was community in that sense. But also, I think, because of my history with Mary Kay, it was like, there was a big onus on networking and knowing friends of friends and, you know, people around you. And so as a matter of fact, I was on a call with a client just yesterday who works with empty nesters who they really want. They have this bucket list, if you will, or list of the things that they wanted to do. Once the kids were out of the house and then the kids leave the house and then they have all this drama come up for them as to why they can’t do the things that they said they were gonna do once the kids left the house, right? So she’s a new coach, and she’s wanting to do that. And so she’s like, beware How do I find these people? And I just simply asked her I said, if you had to guess you don’t have to look but if you had to guess how many people do you have in your cell phone right now to fit the description of an empty nester clip pre-empty nester or just recently became an empty nester live within the last three to five years. So she was like, well, easily at least 25. And so I say, Okay, well, if you talk to them, how many people do you think they know that are new or recent empty nesters she’s gonna probably at least 25 too. So we did a little quick math, because I love doing math. And then 625 people that she would have access to so I said, Well, how many people do you think you can work with in a week? She says six was like, huh, so 625 That’s only 10% of the total people that you have access to in your network or community. That’s your six people right there, potentially. And so that’s what it means to me. For community. It’s like whoever’s in your current network or community, or you can build a community around a certain topic or calls.

Roberto Candelaria 11:52: Yeah, and I think that that’s so important, because I think that, you know, we see so many people think that I need to go build this free Facebook group, or I need to go build this Patreon account or YouTube account before I can go make money. And the reality is that they don’t, I mean, you can, but you don’t need to, because like, we live our lives as humans, we have people all around us. And a couple things that I would add for y’all to, like, even invite Fiat to consider is like, if you go to church, there’s people in your church, there’s people in your Bible study, if you go to your local coffee shop, like there are people at that local Panera or Starbucks, or, you know, the different places that might be there in your city. And so, like your people are literally all around you. And one of my past mentors, what she shared with me is like, and it was kind of kind of his crazy diagram, but she was like Roberto, like she drew a circle like a picture of me and then drew a circle around me. And then she drew dollar signs inside the circle says, like me, a circle around me all the dollar signs were inside the circle. And she’s like, but you looking outside the circle, and all the money’s right here in your sphere already. But you ain’t really ready to look at the people right in front of you. And so I love the example you gave because our community our money, our first customers are right in front of us. But it’s like coaches love to make this so hard. Because then we get to say why it won’t work. And y’all Listen.

TaVona Denise 13:20: I worked so hard or why earned it? Yeah, I think we’re obsessed with it being hard. I think a lot of times we’re looking at what the bigger coaches the more established coaches those with, like more time in the game or experience. We’re looking at what they’re doing. And I think very few people go back at the genesis of that person’s career, and they don’t see the people putting the ads in the magazines, talking to local friend groups, getting people in the living rooms and doing presentations. I mean, I want to clip clarify one thing like because people will think Mary Kay and networking in LA, I don’t want to do that. I want to be clear that I’m not saying go try to sell coaching to all of your friends. However, comma, if you are a doctor or a dentist, and you open up a new clinic or something, you would tell your friends like, Hey, I just opened his new clinic. You know, anybody it’s just as casual and clear is that it doesn’t have to be one of those things where you’re trying to do mental judo and convince your friends to buy from, you know, if you have something you tell people about, it’s very common for us to tell people when we’re going to school, what we’re going to be when we when we introduce ourselves to a new group of people what we do, but when we started running our own businesses, especially as coaches, and especially for those of us who have post-doctorate degrees, and things like that, and lots of letters behind our name, we get all funny about it when we start doing something new and coaching that sometimes we may not perceive as credible or as prestigious as the previous thing. And so, I’m like when you tell people what you do is no different than what you would tell somebody in your other profession.

Roberto Candelaria 15:05: Yeah, you do. And I think that that’s so good, especially about all of the other postgraduate and all the letters because y’all Listen, the only letters behind my name or GED, because I didn’t even finish high school. And you know, but it’s so true because in working with very intelligent, highly educated people it is a lot of what I see is that there’s such an identity tied to, to doctor, to MBA, to dentist, to these professional certifications, that it’s become this identity that they almost lose the identity of self, and then that becomes the identity. And so let’s go with the example of dentist. And the reason I kind of chuckled y’all couldn’t see me chuckle. But the reason I kind of chuckle is when she said it’s like going to a dentist, I immediately y’all. I don’t know if y’all did this, too, when you heard her say it, I immediately took my tongue and ran it across the top of my front teeth. I’m like, I know I brush my teeth. But like, when you brush them against, I’ve like literally what I did when she said dentists. But what came to my head was this is like when people say like, oh, I’m a dentist, they already know, hey, people come because they’re going to get a tooth cleaning. When people say I’m a doctor, they know they didn’t come because they’re going to get their annual physical or, you know, if they a different type of doctor, whatever that main service that doctor is. But is it possible that maybe coaches just don’t say I’m a coach, because they don’t even know what their offer is? And if so, like how do coaches begin to think about offers that feel good to them and create something that feels good to them? And maybe where should they start?

TaVona Denise 16:39: Oh, that is such a big question. Oh, such a big question. Well, I think where you start is what lights you up, where you so it’s not just which lights you up, right, because we’re also in this to make money. So there’s the intersection between what lights you up what you feel confident and competent at doing where you might have street cred already, I think too many of us come into the coaching industry and toss out everything that we stood for everything that we knew before, we got this little piece of paper that took us six weeks, six months to a year to obtain this.

Roberto Candelaria 17:20: Listen, some people 60 seconds because they just went and bought it and printed it out.

TaVona Denise 17:23: See this, in we not go in here today, we’re not in today, for however long it takes you to get the piece of paper 60 seconds to six months.

Roberto Candelaria 17:34: So say y’all write it, you also don’t need to be certified to be an amazing coach, I’m gonna throw that out.

TaVona Denise 17:39: There is that too, right? So however long it takes you to decide that this is what you’re going to do now, I think a couple of things mess us up is we throw out the baby with the bathwater, we throw out all of the street cred that we had coming into the game, we don’t look in our current circle. So I think those are two other things, but how to create an offer something that lights us up something that we feel passionate about something that we will be looking forward to doing in the next five or 10 years, something where we have the credibility, already something that leans towards our strengths and our preferences. Because when we transition from being an employee to an entrepreneur, this stuff is hard. It’s not easy, at least not in the beginning. And so if you’re trying to do and learn too many new things, and a building a business as a whole separate degree, like Hello, MBA, that’s a whole degree and you’re going to take too many new skills into learning that plus all the skills you need to learn as a business owner, you’re making it too hard. So I mean, I just say start where you are, start with what you’re good at what you’re excited about, and what you have a preference for. Because that’s going to make the work even though it is work, it’s going to make it more enjoyable for you to do and people want to pay and be around and work with people who are loving life and loving what they’re doing.

Roberto Candelaria 18:56: Absolutely. So we’re gonna go a bit more specific. And y’all y’all don’t hold hold TaVona to any of this. This is just examples. This is spaghetti at the wall as I like to say so let’s just say somebody were decide to they wanted to their new coach and they wanted to create a one-on-one offer what are maybe two or three ways they could structure that one-on-one coaching offer. And in the reason that I’m asking this is it’s so interesting talking to new coaches, and I hear them say like, well, the only way I can do it is if I meet with somebody and I meet with them every week. So what are maybe two or three ways that somebody could structure a one-on-one coaching engagement with somebody and maybe even the length of that. And y’all we begin to tell you the price that’s up to you.

TaVona Denise 19:38: Oh you went through that way. See, okay, I gotta say this first. I went I’m gonna go with airline right. Okay, so when I’m looking at structuring an offer, I like to go in through capacity first, like how much time do you have? How much money do you need to make? How much energy energetic capacity Do you have? So I’ll give you my own example when I came back into the game in 2018. I said I wanted to start coaching again. And I was I was doing my contract work at the hospital full time. At that time, that meant to me energetically and physically, I did not have the energy, nor the time on my schedule to be working with 20 one-on-one clients, plus all of the energetic exchange that I was doing with the sick patients at the hospital. So for me, as I said, I have a cap of I think I capped it at eight people, maybe for the week. And instead of doing one-on-one every single week, me and that person, I had A weeks, B weeks. And so A weeks we worked, we met together twice a month, and two times a month, they worked with me one on one, two times a month, all of the people in A group they got together. So it was like a hybrid of one on one and a small group. And every time I got a new one on one client threw them in the group. Everybody wasn’t starting together, it was just an open coaching thing. So that’s one way. Again, I just like to start from how much time do you have? How much money do you need to make? What’s your energetic capacity? So it’s kind of hard for me to answer that question.

Roberto Candelaria 21:09: No, but that’s good, though. Right? And what’s so beautiful about that answer, and I hope that y’all can hear that is that there’s no one way is that as a coach, as a business owner, you get to create what’s right for you, right. And I think that, you know, we’re all looking for this perfect template. You know, when I started with one one-on-one coaching, y’all I was doing every single week, and I worked myself ragged. And then I was like, I don’t want a one coach, and no more. I’m only doing groups. And then I was like, I’m doing groups, I’m only doing courses. And then I left courses. And then I came back to groups. And so I share all of that to say this, like, as somebody gets going, like, what is the importance of them being able to look at their life, look at their capacity, as you just say and, and reevaluate and say, Does this still serve me? Does this still serve who I am as a human? Does it serve the business? Does it serve my lifestyle where I want to go?

TaVona Denise 22:06: And your skill level, right, so it’s a different skill to be able to facilitate and coach a group, then to coach one on one. And so you have to ask yourself, like, do at that time, when I went back in and I did that hybrid, I had already been a coach for four years or something like that. So I had enough one-on-one practice where I felt comfortable going into groups. And then some people like they hear the powers that be say, you have to feel your one-on-one practice before you go into group. But some people come from corporate training, background, corporate facilitators, educators, where they’re already used to facilitating groups. So who’s to say that that’s right for that person that they have to do one one-on-one, but they already have experience moving and facilitating groups? So I think it’s not just, it’s your desire, it’s your level of skill. And going back to what I said before, it’s your past, you get to decide like, Hey, okay, I understand why you’re saying one on one. And I, like groups already know how to run groups. So that’s what I that’s what I’m going to do. And sometimes you may even decide, hey, I don’t have experienced running groups. But this is what I have the time and space for. And I’m willing to fumble a little bit along the way. Yeah

Roberto Candelaria 23:25: So speaking of fumbling, Mikey out, we could talk about me for a second here. And when I say s and I say me, because this is something that TaVona and I talk about. And you know, one of the things that I love about getting to have conversations with my friends is I get to bring some of the real-life things that I’m going through as a business owner to the table. And I know this conversation that we’ve had, and so I’m curious if you’ve seen this with other people, too, is like, what are some of the reasons that we stop ourselves from going to next? You know, I’ve shared with you like, listen, girls, like, I hit that money ceiling. And if I cross that, that peaks gonna fall from the sky. Like, I hit it once, and it was wonderful. But if I hit it again, and pigs gonna fall from the sky, or like, we come up with this bullshit, or this daddy, like, oh my god, now I’m gonna need a bigger team, and what if I can’t pay them? So like, what why do we do this to ourselves? Like, why do we stop ourselves from next? And just why? What do we do?

TaVona Denise 24:23: I can say one of the things that I’ve had to work through is if I make quote-unquote too much money and who knows what the threshold for that is right? But we energetically we know we may not have called it out. But we know when we start doing weird stuff and sabotage and changing directions and discount and and all of the weird funky stuff that we do. We’re like, why did that do that? I don’t want to do that. That’s, that’s the cue. That’s the signal that you’re hitting an upper limit of sorts, but I remember going through hypnosis one time, and I saw it so clearly, that I could see I was in this room, and I was standing by like, walking through the threshold of the front door into my dream home, and it’s on the beach, and it’s got this bay window is all these things. So I’m walking into like this as I made it home. And in the corner is like all of my family and cousins and everybody and they’re standing there in like a choir stance, but all of them had their hand out. And so it’s like, I made it. But as soon as I crisscross that threshold, they have their handout, and I gotta give it to them. And so unconsciously, that was one of the reasons why I couldn’t make it because if I made it, then I had to give it away. And most all of us have a Pookie and Ray Ray or somebody in our family, we have this judgment against that person, like they are not doing anything slow, where you have the deadbeat cousin, brother, sister, whomever, where are you? Like, why should I like this is the unconscious conversation? Why should I do all of this work to get to that particular level, whatever that level is for you, just so that I have to give it away to these people who are not willing to do that work. And so that awareness was really important for me. And then that’s where I have to do my work around people pleasing and, and boundaries and stuff and say, hey, yeah, I made it and no, you can’t have and be with that discomfort of Okay, first of all, we’re just guessing, we don’t know that these people will ask for money, they may have a history of what we don’t actually know. And we have to be willing to be uncomfortable with saying no, if they asked because that if is not a known. So that’s one of the things I’ve heard, that’s really a big one that I hear from clients, like, if I go past a certain point, then people will know and then they will ask for money. I think another one that I’ve had in the past is just the fear of the haters have like, you get too big, you get too visible, then people come after you and they have a lot of stuff to say. But if you keep yourself just under the radar, then nobody has anything to say and so on. So that way she can work around it should say no. And another I want to hear what you were thinking I have just looking at you like I have been this whole time. But yeah, for me, it was a visibility projection project. But no, those are those are two big ones that I see us like fear the haters. Fear will people will say, fear of having to give it away, then in the teens, this is going to be overwhelming. If I get too successful, this success will be overwhelming and I won’t be able to handle it as if you don’t have control over the money faucet like you say yes. You say no, you block your schedule, you unblock your schedule, you do sales calls, you don’t do sales calls, like you, you always have control over the money faucet.

Roberto Candelaria 27:51: Listen, I you need to write that book, the money faucet.

TaVona Denise 27:53: Okay, heard it here first, because it is our to talk about it. Now it is it is literally how I talk about it. Well, when we when I was looking at it one day, I was working in a marketing program. And she’s like, You need to come up with the phases that people go through in your line of work. And since I’m a business coach, I was like, oh, yeah, we got people in a drought. And then we got people in the flood and then we excuse me in the trickle and then the people in the flood and then we want to get to a place of flow. And the place of flow is where you know that the money is there. You can turn it on, you can turn it off, you can turn it up, you can turn it down, you can point it in different directions like a water hose. Like that’s the place that I want to help people get two minutes. So yeah, it’s the money faucet.

Roberto Candelaria 28:39: So what are some of the things that keep people in flow with the money faucet?

TaVona Denise 28:42: Well, one, you gotta believe that there’s a faucet and everybody has their own individual source where the water is coming from is not just like this bucket, and everybody put their hose in the bucket and they turn on their false and then if you turn on your faucet and I turn on my faucet and so on, so turns on air forces after a while all the money in the bucket is going to run out that’s not how that works. Everybody has their own individual source that they are connected to, from which the money flows. And if you don’t believe that or when you don’t believe that when you don’t believe in yourself, your clients ability to do the work. You don’t believe in your own process you put a kink in the hose and so, the money either cannot flow everybody’s bent a hose before either it can’t flow or it slows down significantly. Doesn’t mean at the money dry at the money water dried up or stopped being there. It just meant that you bent the hose and it will immediately return if you unkink the hose

Roberto Candelaria 29:41: And the beautiful thing about and kink in the hose yard because listen I did that a lot as a kid because I was always trying to mess with my sister that way is when that water come back out. It comes out with a vengeance.

TaVona Denise 29:53: that is true. Like you backed up baby.

Roberto Candelaria 29:56: Because I was just waiting to come out and if you think about I got such a beautiful analogy for our money too. It’s just like, I’ve been waiting to come to you. I’ve been waiting to be released. But you’ve been holding me back. And that’s just so beautiful to think about. So what’s next for you? Like, where are you going? How are you coaching? How do people work with you? What’s next in your journey?

TaVona Denise 30:16: So many things, especially as I return to my roots of working with the people in healthcare that, you know, I really want to create a community of women in health care, and really help them with not just burnout, but the burnout, boredom and glass ceilings that we find ourselves experiencing in health care. And I want to help them with that through entrepreneurship, whether that means they start their own business in total, whether they do it part-time, whether they become an intrapreneur, within organizations because I started a burnout Resilience Program in one of the largest hospital systems in Atlanta, there are so many ways that you can and kink the hose. And so I just really want to help more women in health care with that, for sure.

Roberto Candelaria 31:09: And last question, the name of the show is called Relationships Make Money. So for you, what are some of the ways that relationships have helped you in your business that maybe other people could apply to their own business?

TaVona Denise 31:23: That could be a whole another episode, Roberto, but I think we were talking about community and your personal network. And I think people get freaked out when they think they’re going to be invited people to the house to do Mary Kay and Tupperware parties and blah, blah, blah. And yes, I know, I’m dating myself. But I think about it, like whenever you are building relationships with people, especially real relationships, you have four types of in my world, four types of relationships are people that are in any setting or room, you have, of course, they are potential clients, there are some people that will work with you, some people will never work with you because they know you. You have cheerleaders, some people who are going to cheer you on, and they’re just going to tell everybody about you, even if they are never someone who pays you, you have potential collaborators, people who will work with you, and help put your name out there more. And then you have quote-unquote, competitors, which I don’t really believe in. But we can say competitor or referral partners, because sometimes you may do the same thing or something similar. And you refer out to these people. So to me, when you’re looking at any room, there are always these people in the room and you want to build relationships with all of them. And I just try to be fascinated with people and really get to know who they are and what they’re trying to do so that I can connect them with others.

Roberto Candelaria 32:48: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And y’all Listen, you’re gonna see all about TaVona online and who knows, maybe we’re going to do something together later this year, but we’re going to talk about that yet. So thank you for being here, friend, and we’ll see you soon.

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